S.O.P. Minimum Ages

[Rook]

It's a fact that children are not capable of handling certain types of activities, responsibilities, substances etc.

What types of activities, substances, responsibilities etc. should have minimum ages, and what should those ages be. And as a guide, what should the age of adulthood be in Uantir?

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My thoughts: Eighteen is a decent age of adulthood. There are some that are more mature at eighteen and some who don't get it until they are twenty two. But you get a better average of maturity at eighteen than, say, sixteen. Twenty might be pushing it, but I can see the reasoning in that. I also firmly oppose any government restricted minimum age for an activity that is higher than the age of adulthood.

Things that should have minimum ages:

Operating Motor Vehicles - 16
Operating Heavy Machinery - 18
Operating Aquatic Vehicles - 16
Operating Aerial Vehicles - 18
Tobaccco Use - 18
Alcohol Use - 18
Concent to Sexual Activity - 16
Gambling - 18
Legal Employment - 16

[Mira O'Halloran]

Operating Motor Vehicles - 16
I would reccomend 18 - Too many kids are killing themselves and others on the roads here. Contibuting factors to the age limit of 15 and 9 months old are lack of experiance, drug and alcohol use, and emotional factors.

Operating Heavy Machinery - 18
I can't really comment on this, other then you need to understand your responsibilities in order to take on something like operating anything that you don't own

Operating Aquatic Vehicles - 16
Same as above

Operating Aerial Vehicles - 18
Same as above, though, over here, it's 15.

Tobaccco Use - 18
I would reccomend 19. At that age you're a bit more aware of your identity and aren't as likely to start using as a result of peer pressure.

Alcohol Use - 18
For non medicinal purposes, again, I'd go with 19. The legal age here is 16 for drinking, 18 for buying, but the amount of people i've seen turn in to alcoholics before their 18th birthdays is just ridiculous.

Concent to Sexual Activity - 16
I'd probably lower it to 15. Most kids think about it by the time they're 14, (and if you went to my school, you should have heard some of the conversations i overheard the other 13, 14 year old girls having about their boyfriends and sex) So having this big gap between wanting to test the waters and being allowed to makes it pretty difficult. Also, most parents don't even bring it up with their teens till they're legal, and in a lot of cases it's too late to warn about pregnancy and STI's. Here's the best example i know. I started high school with 120 others in my year. only 62 of us started the the final year together - most of the drop outs were teenage mums unable to handle school and mothering.

Gambling - 18
Same with alcohol and tobacco, I'd take it up to 19. The earlier you learn addiction, the harder it is to break the pattern.

Legal Employment - 16
I'd take it up to 17. You only get to be underage and have no responsibilities for so long. The legal working age here is 13 and 10 months - and that can be full time, with school. Where's the time for learning to interact with other people, peers in an environment where you have to test it out and learn whats acceptable, and learn social behaviours that will shape your interaction with anyone else for the rest of your life? It's sure not at school or work.

[Rook]

If ages get bumped up to 19, than the legal age of adulthood will have to move up to 19.

I see where you're coming from, but I can't really remember the difference between 18 and 19. I could definitely remember the difference between 17 and 18.

On Motor Vehicles, if the age to drive was moved to 18, how low would you put the permit to learn and drive under the observation of an adult, 16 or 17?

You can fly a plane at 15? That's insane.

For sex I'm not sure if 15 might be too young. At least here fifteen is your first year of high school. You just got out of Jr. High or Middle School as the top of the class and it's a pretty humbling year for most to get knocked back down to size by the Juniors and Seniors. You learn a lot. If you were legal and thus fair game for the seniors I could see that turning out badly. If they wait that year, get that first high school year of experience and maturity (since they have to mingle with older students and a different breed of teacher.)

Here in America the legal working age is 15 with permit. Without a worker's permit you need to be 18. I thought I'd take the middle ground, especially if you're restricted to one job part time until you're 18. That would prevent students dropping school for work or parents taking their kids out of school so they will go to work. I do wish I had a job in High School, because after high school I went to get a job and had no job experience, which a lot of places didn't like. I was actually told, twice, that they were looking for someone who's worked before, especially fresh high school graduates.

[Gelare]

For legal employment, if you wanted to ensure that people finished school you could say, "At whatever age you finish the equivalent of high school from an accredited institution or 18, whichever is lower." To accommodate those teens who really need/want to work, allow them to work up to 20 hours of part time before that point.

As for the rest of it, it's really hard to say. Children are certainly vulnerable and more susceptible to peer pressure than adults; however, it has been argued that the criminalization of underage drinking has made it more desirable to teens. Certainly, I would like to say that these highly dangerous behaviors shouldn't be allowed until 21 or later, but for that to be anything more than a unenforceable law would take tremendous police resources, and for that to be anything less than the fining or incarceration of a ludicrous fraction of the population would basically require that the laws not be enforced.

So I'm genuinely at a loss with what to do there. It's very complicated and very important. I think a good first step that could get broad consensus from people of many persuasions is substantial public education and awareness of the dangers involved.

[Rook]

So to the list we break legal employment up into two categories, full time and part time. Legal part time employment would be what, 15 or 16?

I don't have any figures handy, but I do recall that Canadians have a higher record of responsible drinking habits, and an 18 year old drinking age.

[Gelare]

Part time at 15 seems fine. Also, to discourage behaviors like drinking and smoking, a simple, straightforward method is taxing them. It's a pretty popular method around countries today.

[Mira O'Halloran]

I remember 19 - I felt a lot wiser, and understood more about my place in the world.

With driving the car, I suppose learning from a driver who has held their full license for 2 or more years without suspension at 17 would be okay.

It's only a light aircraft at 15. But, yes, it's still flying.

Ah... your school system is different to ours - High school starts when you're 12/13 - year 8 is the first year of high school over here. But i can see how it would go badly over there.

Most kids dump school at 15/16 to work full time - your permit system sounds like a really good idea! The legal age for leaving school is now going up to 17 to try to make sure kids are getting at least year 10 finished.

There needs to be a lot more education about alcohol availible - and not the clean cut fluffy bunny BS we were told in high school. What the real risks are - every single one of them.

And taxing doesn't work. At least, it's not here. In a bid to cut down on underage drinking, the goverment imposed a 33% increase of prices of 'designer drinks' (breezers, cruisers, ect) And now, instead of going out and getting trashed, everyone gets together at someone's house, they all bring spirits and soda, and make it themselves. And when they're plesantly tipsy, off they go. Most of my uni drinker friends were pretty surprised - it turned out to be a lot cheaper to do it that way, so they have even more money to buy alcohol.

[Gelare]

Jan 12, 2010 23:15:45 GMT -5 Mira O'Halloran said:

And taxing doesn't work. At least, it's not here. In a bid to cut down on underage drinking, the goverment imposed a 33% increase of prices of 'designer drinks' (breezers, cruisers, ect) And now, instead of going out and getting trashed, everyone gets together at someone's house, they all bring spirits and soda, and make it themselves. And when they're plesantly tipsy, off they go. Most of my uni drinker friends were pretty surprised - it turned out to be a lot cheaper to do it that way, so they have even more money to buy alcohol.

Taxing can be tricky. If the taxes pinpoint one specific thing, then naturally people will substitute away from it. If you tax designer drinks, people will make stuff themselves. If you tax all alcohol, people will turn to other kinds of drugs - cigarettes, prescription drugs, whatever. It's a delicate matter, to be sure.

[Rook]

And as such I think we should leave it alone and create reasonable requirements. No one, in all of history, has waited until 21 to drink. You're lucky for them to wait until 18. You get all these kids who get their older brother to buy them a bottle of vodka, and they start mixing drinks at home, they don't understand the limits, they get too drunk and die of alcohol poisoning or they drive home when they shouldn't and people die. If these kids were allowed to have gone to a bar they would have been under the protection of the establishment, for bartenders are required, at least here in California, to have a short course in identifying drunkenness and being able to discern when someone's had too much and bars have an obligation to make sure those who are too drunk to drive get a taxi or a DD etc.

I don't think taxation is the answer. I think if we bring a lot of this youth drinking above the table, where people can see it and react to it, than we can do more in the way of preventing and reacting to extreme drinking. Alcohol in moderation, for 16 year olds to 90 year olds is little hazard (and has been proven to be healthy) but it's so much harder to ensure they are drinking responsibly when they are drinking in secret.

[Mira O'Halloran]

I agree with you fully on that... taxing doesnt' work, and encourages it all to go undercover.

[Rook]

So taxation is out. With no active simulated economy there's little point in legislating taxes, at the time.

I think the point we're dodging back and forth here on, is the legal age of adulthood 18 or 19. Her Grace believes it should be 19 and I put my vote behind 18. Does anyone else wish to contribute?

[Artz]

Operating Motor Vehicles - I think that someone should be eable to start to learn to dirve (and drive safety) at around 15.. but not be able to get their liscence until 17. By 17-18 years, you're travelling onto higher education and generally looking to move out of your parents houses. So, having a liscence by that point is useful and safe. But it takes ages to learn it.. especially at the same time as studying education later. Starting at 15 enables safety to be drummed into kids heads, aswell as giving them a lot of time to learn and pass.

Operating Aquatic Vehicles - I think that, like with driving, you should be able to learn to drive a boat at 15, but not have a liscence til 17. For similar reasons, really.. but for those who live near the coast.

Operating Aerial Vehicles - 18. I'd agree with 18, here.. as in learning to fly at 18 and being able to get a liscence as soon as you pass.

Tobaccco Use - 21. I think smoking should be discouraged by hightening the age limit. If they can't buy it til 21, its mainly down to parents to buy it for them, in which case its a different matter. Its unlikely that a person of 16/17 is going to have contacts with someone of the age of 21, without it being their family.

Alcohol Use - 21, again for similar reasons as smoking. Also, both should be taught profusely in schools and have regular advertisement campaigns to show the bad sides of smoking, drugs and alcohol.

Concent to Sexual Activity - 16. 16 is really where you start to explore.. I guess. Any higher and tensions rise.. any lower and you start getting pregnant kids.


Legal Employment - 15/16 for a part time job, 17-18 for a full time job

[Gelare]

Jan 28, 2010 13:09:14 GMT -5 Artz said:

Tobaccco Use - 21. I think smoking should be discouraged by hightening the age limit. If they can't buy it til 21, its mainly down to parents to buy it for them, in which case its a different matter. Its unlikely that a person of 16/17 is going to have contacts with someone of the age of 21, without it being their family.

Now, I haven't seen the latest statistics on underage drinking, but I'm pretty sure raising the age for tobacco use is going to be not super effective. Honestly, tobacco consumption in the U.S. has dropped precipitously largely as a result of anti-smoking public campaigns and a widespread awareness of the health dangers of smoking. It took a couple decades, but it has worked. Spread information; raise awareness; knowledge is power. And I daresay the results are substantially better than levying legal penalties (including fines and incarceration) on lots of teenagers.

[Queen Rachel]

There's only a few of these I really have anything to say about. The first one that jumps out is Consent to Sexual Activity. This is remarkably vague. Are you really going to penalize foolish teenagers who start fooling around? Or is this just meant to prevent pedophilia? That seems like a different matter entirely.

What seems to me a more relevant issue is the legal age to consent to marry, with or without the consent of parents.

As far as legal age for alcohol use goes, I believe there should be no minimum age should a parent wish to give their children alcohol in their own home, as long as the parent is preventing drinking in excess. To purchase alcohol, or use it without adult supervision, I agree should have firm age limits set, but teenagers should be given the opportunity to experiment with their limits under the guidance of a responsible adult. I think that's likely to prevent horrific accidents involving those who reach the legal age and go crazy, being completely inexperienced.

The other issue I have is with His Majesty's suggested age limit for legal employment. I think 16 is quite late. By 14, most kids are going crazy trying to figure out how to earn a few extra bucks. I think a worker's permit should be able to be issued to anyone over the age of 12, signed off by both parents, and school administrators. Other than that, I do think that 16 is a good age to work permit-less.

[Mira O'Halloran]

I think penalizing teenagers for fooling around is silly - but the pedophilia part is a good point - what laws do we put in place around that? I think the legal age for marriage ought to be 19.

My parents used to pay me for chores - cooking, dishes, feeding the dogs, cats, birds, chickens, mucking the chook yard, weeding the veggie garden. And i was spending 32 hours a week at school which left little time for anything else.

In regard to Tobacco usage - I had an adult tell me that cigarettes were a health ruining money wasting digusting habit that he wished he'd never picked up, then with permission from my mother, I was about 7, my brother 4, We each tried one intake of the cigarette - it put me off them for life. So there's one preventative measure.

And I think That Her Majesty has a good idea - alcohol under the supervision of parents at any age.